Saturday, June 24, 2006

I submit for you

Most of us agree that women are capable of doing all kinds of jobs and deserve to be treated equally. Women can have careers children and do it well. A healthy support group in a necessity. It takes a village to raise a child. If you and only you raised your children at what point did you allow the outside world in to their brains? I was raised by my parents, siblings, aunts, uncles, people from my fathers work place, neighbors, and yes, even teachers. You are shaped by those who come into you life. So in a way they raise you. I was exposed to lots of people, I do feel that I’m more open minded than others. I will understand if you are having trouble thinking that others raised your children with you or that others raised you. I have fond memories of a woman who took very good care of me where my father worked and she has fond memories also. She loves me and my children. She helped to shape me.

Women should submit to their husbands and the husbands should be kind in how that treat them.

As Larry said,

A Christian woman may submit to her husband, but if the husband takes advantage of the situation, is she suppose to just set quietly with folded-hands and acknowledge full submission regardless of the circumstances?

Maeghan said,

husbands are commanded to love their wives with an imperative, nothing less, agapate ... Now, that is even a stronger submission, don't you say?...when talking to men, he knows he would have to be hard on them.

The word submit doesn’t mean to be downtrodden and treat like dirt. Women came from God not man God created us. He used a piece of his rib, not foot, not head, not back, his side. To be at his side.

Women were also given a wonderful privilege we get to be mommy. If you’ve been blessed with having a baby grow in your body you know the pain is worth it. If you adopted your baby then you too are blessed with a wonderful gift from God. Being a women is an amazing adventure and I enjoy almost every part of it. I think that were blessed to have women like Abigail Adams, the women who were involved in the suffrage, and the women who worked so hard for the equal rights amendment many died wondering if we could ever be treated equally.

Andreia said,

Feminist: person who embraces the equality for women in political, economic and cultural sectors. A person that acknowledges women should have the ability to exercise their talents in these sectors in many different ways

Milly says,

Feminism is the act or practice of being a woman, what ever your definition is of you. Being true to your womanhood. If it means you’re a police officer, a firefighter, a lawyer, CEO of a company,or a stay at home mommy. Embracing the woman that you are because that’s who God made you to be.


jettybetty said...

I just read all 27 of your comments on down a bit--I can't believe I stumbled on all these comments--I am doing a lesson on Tuesday about this very thing--I really enjoyed Ellen's comments, too--I am sure some of this will become a part of our Bible study on Tuesday. Thanks for a great discussion!

codepoke said...

Hehehe. Milly's famous!

Be sure to check out Gods Work to Women on this subject, Milly. Really strong stuff.

On the subject of Eve coming from Adam's rib, check this out:
"RIB" as used in Genesis 2:21-22

Ellen said...

Kevin, you might want to carefully check the doctrines of the authors these folks recommend.

It is really strong stuff. You can learn a lot about doctrine by the company it keeps.

Milly said...

I've briefly read it. I didn't want to find myself referring to someone else’s vies then my own and those reading. I will be checking it out later.

JettyBetty was in Oklahoma! Hot and humid. At least she had Ted’s :-}

Milly said...

I’m glad it will help with a study. I always learn from post like this. It’s cool when you get different views. It makes you go Hmm I’ll look it up. Then you really learn from God’s word.

Patchouli said...

Ellen, as a staff member of GWTW, I assure you that we are available to answer any questions you may have. We are very careful to check the doctrinal beliefs of any author of articles or books we recommend and have removed articles when an author's walk does not match his/her talk.

The Word is strong, stronger than any two edged sword. Yes, GWTW contains pretty strong stuff. God's Word is pretty strong stuff.

I am reading "The Redemption of Love" by Carried Miles. It is fascinating and enlightening, full of solid information. Highly recommended for anyone interested in the subjects of egalitarianism and complementarianism.

Ellen said...

Patchouli, I'm just aware that there are a few readers here who are not into the mystical, who are not Pentecostal, etc.

Even a quick glance at the authors in the "recommended books" tab shows that a good number of them are coming from a certain doctrinal background.

If a person cares to "guard your life and doctrine closely," they may want to take care with the authors that they read.

That's all I'm saying - be aware of who you're reading.

jettybetty said...

Milly~~~we have relatives in the OKC area--is that close to you?

We LOVE Ted's--too bad we don't have them down here in Texas---yet!

codepoke said...

Kevin, you might want to carefully check the doctrines of the authors these folks recommend.

Keep on guarding the flock, Ellen, no matter what your doctrine may be. I'll support you all the way! ;-)

Kroeger is one of my favorite authors, and of course I loved Bushnell's book, God's Word to Women. (Why are there no books by Bilezikian?) Nee, Chambers, and Murray are all great too. There is actually one author in their list with whom I disagree, but that's not entirely unusual. The rest I don't know or don't have strong feelings about.

On their subject of expertise, though, I recommend them highly. Excellent, solid information is all over the site.

Milly said...

. Jettybetty,

OKC is a bit of a drive. I have relatives there. We loved Ted's the wait to get in is long all the time. Then again you won't need to eat again for a few days. Wear your big pants.

jettybetty said...

Do you have a Ted's near you--or do you have to drive to OKC? Really, you don't need to eat for a looonng time after a visit to Ted's. I do try to wear elastic waist pants =-)!!!

Your site has helped--I still think someone will disagree with me over at my site--it's not that I want that--but I would to study through--pray through the different thought processes before I present this on Tuesday. If you have anything to throw out there--please do-since it seems we have had some parallel spiritual thinking lately.

I think the issue of women in the Bible is pretty confusing because it's hard to untangle cultural issues then and now--and just get down to what God's plan for us actually is.

Thanks again for your thoughts--I will look forward to some more challenging stuff from you.

Ellen said...

Codepoke, there are those who are reformed who believe that egalitarianism is fine.

It's the apostolic bit I was referring to.

How much of Watchman Nee have you read?

Milly said...

I could walk to Ted's from where I live. The walk back would be a good thing. :-}

Thank you for the kind words. Even though we are all not in agreement it is still valued because we do all learn for the discussion.

codepoke said...

The Plymouth Brethren movement was a huge part of the foundation of Watchman Nee's ecclesiology. He came back from England with a lot of ideas that would eventually contribute to the hyper-shepherding movement, and to Witness Lee's Local Church in America.

It has been 20+ years since I read him, but I read an awful lot of his stuff back in the 80's. There were books of his that I would not touch, but I praise the Lord for the ones that I find listed on the GWTW site (God's WORD to Women - not Gods Work to Women as I quoted earlier.) The Release of the Spirit was very rich if edgy as I recall, and of course the Normal Christian Life is a gold standard book. His authoritarian touch, expanded to so much damage by Witness Lee, was a problem for me.

When I look at Nee, though, I don't look at his errors. I look at the fruit. I look at the Little Flock of China - and I weep at their beauty. The man was the Lord's instrument to do something rare and beautiful in the darkest of lands. Millions of Chinese saints raised the bar defining what it is to be a Christian.

Did Nee teach apostleship in our age? Then I will give him a hearing! He is part of the reason that I still believe in the gift of apostle for this age. Today we call them missionaries, but it was exactly the same gift Paul references in Ephesus.

A 21st century apostle ain't one of the 12 cornerstones of the church. There will never be more than those 12 "the apostles", and anyone who claims to be working in the same line and power with them is a nutcase. There are, however, those who have the same gift of the Spirit, the gift to go out and make churches where there were none before.

So, when I read Nee, I have to read him through 2 cultural filters:
1) Chinese
2) Plymouth Brethren

I don't know anyone who would not profit from spending time with him.

Amusingly, he is about as anti-egalitarian as can be, unless I am mistaken. I know the Local Church is a doily wearing bunch. It's rather open of the GWTW staff to recommend his books.

Sorry, Milly. I hope you don't mind me taking off on Nee a little bit.

Milly said...

No bother at all. You sir are always welcome to toss in a joke to liven us up when we slow our posting (That was me wasn't it? :-) Or tell us something that is on your mind. You sir are a welcomed brother.