Tuesday, June 20, 2006

Heads up incoming

Women doing a "man's job"
I agree if I'm doing the job then I should do as well
I think it’s a bit too easy to say that women’s roles are to follow the man because it’s God’s plan.
Do a study on women in the Bible and you will find a very rich history of wonderful women. I knew that I would get a slam when I posted about feminism. I have not yet finished so those that have made judgement on me should hold it for the ending. I have been talking to co-workers both men and women, professionals, people of all ages about what feminism means. I have not yet finished because I feel that pointing out the Suffrage is important.

I will next move to the Equal Rights Movement. Now put your rocks down I have yet to post.

I do want to say this again, your opinion is wanted in a respectful way.


Ellen said...
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Ellen said...

try this again...

the Bible is full of "too easy" things - ask the churches that demand works instead of faith, because faith alone just seems too simple.

(Please define "slam" - some folks - generally only women - see any disagreement that isn't cloaked in flowery language and apologies for having a different belief as a slam.)

Danny Kaye said...

I eagerly look forward to the next post. I am all for the equal rights of women. They are equal in the eyes of God and should be treated so.

But I have a staaaange feeling that the Mill-gurl is gonna come up with some pretty juicy stuff!

codepoke said...

I will enjoy giving the firefighting link to a young friend of mine who hates the fact that their are women who will work alongside him when he gets his full-time position.

Milly said...


I have never ever in my whole life asked anyone to sugar coat any disagreement. When the doctor gave me worse case scenario I thought Wow. I wasn't ready to hear that, but I'm glad she said it because now I'm prepared for my next step. Never hold back, I don’t. I do at times reread what is written because I tend to shoot fast. I have to steady my aim make sure the target is in the right sites. That’s why we have a safety so we don’t shoot the wrong target.

Milly said...

Honestly, a young man hating to work along side women? Are we failing to teach our young people equality? I see that the 60's are slipping away. Wait put the rock down. We were not for the lies told. (Yiks that's a whole other post that could bring in some big rocks) My sister works harder than a lot of people for EDS and a man would do well working with her.

Ellen said...

Codpoke and Milly - I think it depends on the work environment. In "corporate America", women have been given the power to ruin lives - and they do.

Most times there can be no defense against a harassment charge because to merely make the accusation is the conviction.

To merely make the accusation is to set into motion a series of events that most often ends in discharge for the man. If the company fires the man, then the company cannot be sued.

Keep in mind -
- the "victim" doesn't have to be the one "harassed", merely "offended" by behavior
- Many more people have experienced sexual harassment than have a solid legal case against the accused.
- A person only has to "feel" harassed (very subjective)
- A person can be fired for telling a woman "that color looks good on you"
- A friend's co-worker was fired for telling a blonde joke.

In corporate America, women have caused a lot of the feelings against them.

It also depends on the job. Men are a lot less concerned about breaking their nails. There are many women I wouldn't want to work next to.

Milly said...


I’ve been grabbed by a boss. Yes, he grabbed my breast twice. I took a very sharp knife and put him to the wall. I should have had him fired my temper took the best of me. As for breaking nails, I too have worked with women like that I have also worked with wimpy men so that don’t hold water with me. I, most of the time, keep my nail a bit long. I’d be willing to help pull an engin. So that don’t hold water. My husband works with women who can fix airplanes and they don’t play that way. I agree that some have falsely accused men of harassment men too have destroyed lives, women have been harassed and raped.

As for corporate jobs if they can do it, then they have a right to do it. I am proud to know CEO’s both men and women.

Ellen said...

Milly, I agree, if a person can do the job, they should legally be able to do it.

But personal attitude sometimes have reasons behind them. I've known some that are very justified.

codepoke said...

The young man I mention is a weight-lifter, and concerned that the average woman could not pull him from a burning building. He has the same problem with men who would fail at the same task.

Andreia said...

I would recommend some further reading of Title VII to anyone that would like to understand the legal tests to sexual harassment claims. You can find some of that here: http://www.eeoc.gov/policy/docs/currentissues.html

For example, it is incorrect to say that a person merely has to "feel harassed." The Supreme Court has ruled that the claim should pass a reasonable woman test to determine if the claim is something that a typical woman would find offensive. This of course, is not the only test and the others can be found at the site.

The ability to stay out of trouble with sexual harassment claims does not require any more than following simple guidelines for respect for individuals.

Ellen said...

For example, it is incorrect to say that a person merely has to "feel harassed."

Add "under the law" and you would be correct. What individual companies do (fire "for cause" or "lay off" in order to prevent a lawsuit) is not part of the law.

If a company chooses to be more strict than the law, that is up to them.

Ellen said...
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Andreia said...

In Texas, and many other states, employment is at will meaning that without a written contract the employer or the employee can terminate the relationship for any reason. So your friend's friend could have been fired for wearing red two days in a row. That is exactly why there are wrongful termination lawsuits and why the company can be sued.

Of course there are wrongful claims; as there are in any area of the law. But admittedly, without any imperical data, and only personal experience as a manager and a victim to draw from, I would suggest that there are more valid claims out there than those that are pursued. Oftentimes to pursue a claim brings much unneeded agony for the claimant. Many of the cases that I have seen go unreported were not pursued because the working single mom needed the job to feed kids at home.

From a management standpoint, it is only beneficial to have varied viewpoints in order to meet the goals of the organization, including those viewpoints of nail-breakers. To say that an organization is only successful if every person thinks the same way is a fallacy at best.

Ellen said...

That is exactly why there are wrongful termination lawsuits and why the company can be sued.

How much would that cost a man who had just lost his job? Especially against a large corportation with very many lawyers? Do you think the corportation knows that?

I researched gender relations and biases for several different papers for different subjects. What I found is pretty apalling and it is no wonder that more and more men are swearing off of marriage, leaving the church, leaving their wives and just bowing out of whatever contact with women that they can.

I'd like to see a return to Biblical gender roles, but I don't see that happening in most denominations.

Andreia said...

I would love to hear your take on the Proverbs 31 woman.

Andreia said...

Also, do the biblical gender roles you speak of include polygamy?

Ellen said...

Actually, I've written on polygamy - if the Bible doesn't say it's sin, neither will I. It's posted here.

As far as Proverbs 31, do you think I'd have a problem with a woman who makes her husband proud, who oversees her household, takes care of others and whose value the Bible says is "far above rubies"?

Together with Titus , that's a tall order.

There is nothing in Provers 31 that would even vaguely suggest that the noble woman in Proverbs 31 is not in subjection to her husband. If fact, given the time and place, it is highly doubtful he would be proud of her if she were not.

Milly said...

My husband in no way is a wimp and he cooks, (not well, kids aren’t starving) cleans, irons, does laundry, all the outside work, that I cannot do because I become very ill in the sun, and works 40 hours a week Because his wife work 30 hours a week. Go back to biblical roles like when the women did all of the house work, plus worked the fields, or other jobs like Lydia? No thank you. I’m glad my husbands mom trained him and her husband he clears the table for us after we eat. We cook, he cleans. I married a partner not a master.

My husband is proud of me as I am of him.

Ellen said...

I didn't write it, God did.

Ellen said...

At any rate, Milly, I'm talking about the fundamental "who" of Biblical roles", you're talking about the "what" of people do.

I'm talking about a wife that lovingly and joyfully becomes a selfless servant and a husband who washes his wife in the Word, to present her blameless before God.

You're talking about I don't want to...

I'm talking about roles, you're talking about jobs. Apples and oranges. Priscilla was a tentmaker, along with her husband.

Milly said...

I believe that andreia and I have that. I wonder if you did.
If you read Danny Kaye's blog and Doug’s You will see that they seem to have that. I guess I'm somewhat confused at what you think we are talking of. The others seem to have a lot of respect for women and men. Again you don’t know where this is going and at times I don’t I always end up learning from where God leads me. He is in charge.

Ellen said...

You're right, I don't know where you're going.

All I know is that yesterday you didn't seem ready to have God involved.