Life after death.
What happens after we die folks?
Let’s take some time to look at scripture and talk.
I know that some of my views are heart led..
I loved a boy when I was in high school. He was smart and handsome , so much talent, a musician, the drums. He was a friend, someone to talk to. He loved Bob Seger and seemed to love life. I remember being out at Kender’s Holler one night, kids just hanging out, most likely drinking, he looked at me, so young so. . . I don’t know. . . then he said pointing at the sky "See that star?" " Yes" I said "It’s my star, my favorite star."
We kissed prom night I told him I loved him he said he loved me too then he stagged away. My friend had dumped him at the prom.
I started college, he met a girl, I was happy for him. I was at the store he worked at we stood outside and talked for a long while. When I came home from college a day or two later my mom was on the phone with a friend who worked with him. I was devastated by the news that my friend had put a gun to his head and pulled the trigger. I was angry at myself and him. How could we not know that he wanted to do that?
My church upbringing tells me that he wasn’t going to be waiting in Heaven with that smile and open arms. My heart tells me different. I still look at that star and smile when I hear Bob Seger.
So folks let’s talk. I can take your opinions I was raised Southern COC. I honestly want to hear them.
8 comments:
Hey Milly,
This is an easy question, until someone's heart is on the line. :-(
I will try to take time to answer it well later, but until then, this post over at Three Hierarchies is long but VERY powerful. CPA takes an extended quote from Harriet Beecher Stowe in which a woman has lost an unsaved loved one. Gut-wrenching stuff, and a great answer in the end.
We can't know, but we can guess, we can imagine, and we can hope.
In C. S. Lewis's "The Great Divorce", he paints a picture of souls in Hell going to the gates of Heaven to be invited in, only to refuse the offer because they still can't shed that part of themselves which kept them from God when they were living. And yet, there are a very rare few who make the sacrifice, and Lewis writes that it's as if they had always chosen God (chapter 9).
At the end of the Narnia chronicles, a boy who thought he was serving a false god (Tash) is told by Aslan that no good deed does not have its origin in Aslan, and all that the boy thought he was doing for Tash (when he did good deeds) he was really doing for Aslan. Lewis's general point is that no one who truly seeks God shall be denied Him.
In light of all the scriptural and non-scriptural writing on the topic, there is no one who can truly say how the judgment of God will be exacted; God's ways are not ours.
A reminder it was more than twenty years ago. I have resolved my anger at him, me and those involved.
What is posted on this won’t hurt me. I was told growing up that suicide was a sin that kept you from heaven.
I spoke to an elder tonight about the subject of judgement and if there is a second chance. I’ll save that for later. I want to hear from you folks and I want scripture.
Thanks japhy and codepoke.
Carry on friends.
You asked for scripture, here we go. Yeeehaaa!
1 Tim 3:16
Beyond all question, the mystery from which true godliness springs is great:
He appeared in a body,
was vindicated by the Spirit, [c]
was seen by angels,
was preached among the nations,
was believed on in the world,
was taken up in glory.
When we talk about the things on the other side of the veil of the flesh, we are talking about a true mystery. I think we should talk about these things, but I think we should remember that we could really be wrong.
That said, the classic verses on the subject are:
Heb 9:27
27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,
There is no flexibility in that statement. We each die once, and then we face God to be judged.
Luke 16
19 "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
25 "But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'
27 "He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
29 "Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'
30 " 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'
31 "He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "
This passage is especially clear. The rich man is given no reason to hope. He is in torment, and there is no glimmer of hope given to him that he will receive a second chance. Furthermore, Abraham makes it clear to him in Christ's story that his brothers will either believe the prophets or not. The difference is not what their eyes see. The difference is something deeper. I believe that difference is found in the Father's work.
Now I leave the classic verses on the topic for one that I think answers much more than appears at first glance.
John 6
35 Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All whom the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day."
41 At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, "I am the bread that came down from heaven." 42 They said, "Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, 'I came down from heaven'?"
43 "Stop grumbling among yourselves," Jesus answered. 44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' [d] Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. 46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which people may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats of this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."
A careful reading of his passage turns up some phrases that younger Christians often have not really thought about.
* All whom the Father gives me will come to me,
* the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me,
* No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them,
* It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.'
These verses are at the heart of some long-running debates. At some point, everyone who has discussed the Lord with Christians outside their own denomination has been asked to form an opinion about these verses.
I am not going to do that here.
I just want to observe that:
* God is not surprised by the people who come to Him, nor by those who don't.
* God has never "lost" a single soul.
* God has drawn every one of us to Himself.
* Whatever we have learned of God, we have learned directly from Him, even when a sister has taught it to us. Our teachers plant the seed, but it is God Who grows it within us.
This IS a mystery, but when my unbelieving earthly father died, God was not surprised. God did not "lose" my father, and He will not eternally mourn his loss. I believe God mourned my father's loss, much the same way I did, but He was not surprised and will not mourn it forever. I will mourn it to some degree for the rest of my life, but I will not mourn it forever, either.
One thing more from John 6. Jesus offered the Bread of His Body, broken for us. My father had ample opportunity to accept that Bread. He shared in communion for a year or more when we were all younger. My father rejected the Bread of Life to His face. God will be just in the day when He judges my father and condemns him.
That fact is a hard one to face. I loved my father, and I love the God Whom my father rejected. I believe that the Father has a wise answer hidden from us yet, but I know that His answer will not sidestep His own justice.
The final word is that Jesus is the One Who bled and suffered and died. He Who suffered so much for us, will handle the end of all things wisely.
A quick word about suicide.
I lost a brother and sister in the Lord separately to suicide. Both were dear saints, and absolutely were not apostate. I will see them both in heaven.
Survivors deal with suicide in their own ways. Some need to reject it utterly, and some do not. Either way is OK with me. Scripture hardly mentions it. G.K. Chesterton did a really touching piece on suicide in which he calls it the worst of all sins. He concludes that the suicide kills all the world, since no one can get to him again. I love Chesterton, and admire his logic and writing, but he is wrong on this one.
Suicides will be pitied by their Lord as much as any other sinner. Jesus, Himself, collapsed under the burden of the cross as He obeyed His Father. That Doris and Dave lacked the strength to stand under the burdens that were layed upon them is a fault, but one to incite pity and love, not damnation. Christ's sacrifice is bigger than suicide.
I will see Doris and Dave again. I loved them, and they loved me. When we meet again, it will be in joy and I look forward to that day with great hope.
Hello Milly
I had 2 scriptures lined up and Codepoke stole my thunder.
Here is the other problem that I see.
Salvation requires faith.
Ephesians 2:7-9 (NIV)
7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
When I stand before God. I no longer need faith, I can see God in His full glory the need for faith has been rendered useless.
Remember the story in Luke about the sinful woman who annointed Jesus' feet with alabastar? Jesus' closing words were "Go in peace. Your faith has saved you."
In saying all of this, I don't believe that suicide is an unpardonable offense. The Bible says that at our time of redeption all sin (transgressions) are forgiven. If this were not true then if I was mad at my wife just before I died in a car accident, then I would be hell-bound.
Redemption is through our faith in Jesus and believing He is who He says He is.
God Bless
-Doug
Good going guys.
My husband and I spoke about some of this this morning at breakfast. I'm going to work up some stuff and have it posted soon. Some of the things we spoke about you guys answered. God thing.
I used the suicide as an example. I'm not sure he was a Christian to be honest.
I use to sit and pray for a dieing loved one. (Ok cry too.) I was so happy to hear that he had repented before passing on.
Keep posting.
Hey there, Milly!
It's a great question. I don't think I have anything to add to what has been said.
Doug Jacoby put out a book entitled What Happens After We Die?
I've not read it yet. But that is only because I didn't know about it until 2 minutes ago!
If you don't know Doug Jacoby, let me just say that he is a brain and a heart with feet!
Give it a go.
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