My husband and I spoke on this. I read your responses on the way to pick up Little's.
Here's one thing that I said. We just don't know what happens to a person's soul is there moment when you see the truth? When you have a chance to see God? I believe that God will see our hearts He will know the true feelings. He will know if we are faking it to get in.
Please take the time to read all of the responses.
It’s a great subject for discussion.
Thank you for the words. Blessed are we!
Japhy,
In light of all the scriptural and non-scriptural writing on the topic, there is no one who can truly say how the judgment of God will be exacted; God's ways are not ours.
Codepoke,
Heb 9:2727 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,There is no flexibility in that statement. We each die once, and then we face God to be judged.
I just want to observe that:* God is not surprised by the people who come to Him, nor by those who don't. * God has never "lost" a single soul. * God has drawn every one of us to Himself. * Whatever we have learned of God, we have learned directly from Him, even when a sister has taught it to us. Our teachers plant the seed, but it is God Who grows it within us.
dogalug,
The final word is that Jesus is the One Who bled and suffered and died. He Who suffered so much for us, will handle the end of all things wisely.
When I stand before God. I no longer need faith, I can see God in His full glory the need for faith has been rendered useless.Remember the story in Luke about the sinful woman who annointed Jesus' feet with alabastar? Jesus' closing words were "Go in peace. Your faith has saved you
This one says it clearly that it won’t be the same line that we stand in for judgment.
Psalm 1:4-6 (New International Version)
5 Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous.
6 For the LORD watches over the way of the righteous, but the way of the wicked will perish.
This says we will all have our sins examined.
Ecclesiastes 12:12-15 (New International Version)
13 Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter: Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil.
Revelation 14:4-14
The Three Angels
6Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth—to every nation, tribe, language and people. 7He said in a loud voice, "Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water."
8A second angel followed and said, "Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great, which made all the nations drink the maddening wine of her adulteries."
9A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, 10he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name." 12This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.
13Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on." "Yes," says the Spirit, "they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them."
Revelation 16:1-16 (New International Version)
Revelation 16
The Seven Bowls of God's Wrath
1Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, "Go, pour out the seven bowls of God's wrath on the earth." 2The first angel went and poured out his bowl on the land, and ugly and painful sores broke out on the people who had the mark of the beast and worshiped his image.
3The second angel poured out his bowl on the sea, and it turned into blood like that of a dead man, and every living thing in the sea died.
4The third angel poured out his bowl on the rivers and springs of water, and they became blood. 5Then I heard the angel in charge of the waters say: "You are just in these judgments, you who are and who were, the Holy One, because you have so judged; 6for they have shed the blood of your saints and prophets, and you have given them blood to drink as they deserve."
7And I heard the altar respond: "Yes, Lord God Almighty, true and just are your judgments."
8The fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and the sun was given power to scorch people with fire. 9They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent and glorify him.
This implies a chance to change a moment of repentance.
10The fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom was plunged into darkness. Men gnawed their tongues in agony 11and cursed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, but they refused to repent of what they had done.
They still refuse, however, it implies a chance to turn to God.
12The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the East. 13Then I saw three evil[a] spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14They are spirits of demons performing miraculous signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.
15"Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is he who stays awake and keeps his clothes with him, so that he may not go naked and be shamefully exposed."
16Then they
Passage 3: 1 Peter, chapter 318 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
Passage 7: Revelation 207
Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea.9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
Now let’s hear more from you give your opinions.
10 comments:
This is an interesting take on the subject. I like the Revelation, so it's fun.
First, Psalm 1:4-6 (New International Version)
5 Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment,
I think this says the wicked are in the same line, but that they fall before the judgement. They are found guilty, and the Lord does not hear their weeping for mercy. They are condemned.
Looking on at some of the Revelation stuff:
Rev 16:9They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent and glorify him.
Milly: This implies a chance to change - a moment of repentance.
I agree, but they are still alive at this point. I don't see any point in Revelation that God forbids people to repent. Though I'm convinced that He hardness their hearts at some point, they are still the guilty ones for not repenting.
Rev 20:15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
The question is how one gets their name into the Book of Life.
Imagine a moment 30 seconds before the end of all things. There's that last person who is going to accept Christ before the Lord returns in final judgement. She turns in faith to Christ, and believes Him with all her heart.
Is that the moment that her name is written into the Book of Life?
Rev 17:8 ... The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished ...
Nope. Her name was there from the moment the Lord layed the foundation for this place.
Most of the Revelation refers to people who are alive, so I have no problem with them getting second chances. When you get to Rev 20, though, it is dealing with people who are dead, and there is no hint of anything but certain judgement.
This is because God was not surprised by any of these things. He knew everyone who would perish in that lake of fire, and He handled the universe in such a way as to ensure the outcome was correct.
His ways are above ours, and He has planned this out so that the only scars left on the universe when it's over are the ones on His own body. We will shed no more tears.
Codepoke,
Good stuff. I love Revelation. Most are afraid to read it, let alone study it. I'm going to try soon with my son and husband.
I wonder if God understands why they turn against Him? How to say this. Does He throw blessings at them in order to get them to see Him?
I'm not exactly putting this the way I want to say it. Do you think He puts road blocks in the road?
For instance my uncle's last words after church were pray for me ****** (His wife’s name)
I’m going to Heaven. I think he saw something we can only dream of at this moment. His son is an atheist. My mother joined him about two months later, then less than two months more another uncle joined them.(Most families get together for picnics not back to back funerals) Pray for me I’m going to Heaven was a great comfort to me. I wondered if it made a dent in my cousin’s life.
The biggest comfort that we as Christians have is the fact that God knows their finial thoughts on this earth. He knows our hearts.
I wonder if God understands why they turn against Him? How to say this. Does He throw blessings at them in order to get them to see Him?
I'm not exactly putting this the way I want to say it. Do you think He puts road blocks in the road?
Tough questions! I can only guess.
Matt 5:44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
I did a study recently in which I concluded that God loves His enemies, and God hates His enemies, but He is never lukewarm toward them.
Here are some interesting things God said about Him making people stumble.
[This one is off-topic, but I thought it was cool.]
Leviticus 19:14 TNIV
" 'Do not curse the deaf or put a stumbling block in front of the blind, but fear your God. I am the LORD.
Ezekiel 3:20 TNIV
"Again, when the righteous turn from their righteousness and do evil, and I put a stumbling block before them, they will die. Since you did not warn them, they will die for their sins. The righteous things they did will not be remembered, and I will hold you accountable for their blood.
1 Corinthians 1:23 TNIV
but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles,
Romans 9:32 TNIV
Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.
So, yeah, I think God does actually put roadblocks in front of people at some point, but mostly He bends over backwards to make sure everyone has a fair chance to know the Truth.
I think God knows perfectly well the reason people do not choose Him. We cannot. We never could, and left to our own, we never would. The miracle is that any of us ever do choose Him, and I think that miracle happens because He makes it happen.
Milly,
Nice stuff.
I have a couple comments:
Rev. 16:9 "...the guilty one for not repenting"
Milly: I think this is talking about end-times on earth. Up to our fleshly death, we have the opportunity to recieve God's blessing and gift of salvation.
There are those, like one of my uncles, who I belive will spit in the face of judgement. When faced with the undeniable truth, and presented with the absolute consequences of their decision, they will thumb their nose at God's free gift.
Codepoke: I totaly agree with your thinking here, but there is a scripture that has always bothered me concerning this. With Moses, the bible said the God 'hardened' Pharo's heart. That would imply that God does prevent repenting. I have my own theory on this, but I would love to hear yours.
Now The book of life...
Milly: again I see us as humans, looking at revelation as a sequence of events in a linear fashion (codepoke... this may get to the heart of my theory about my previous question to you). Before the words came from your lips, your pennance, and redemption have already been accounted for. It is not that God chose your path, it is that God knew your answer.
This is the circular predestination issue. Our God has taken all of our decision and prayers (or lack therof) into account and has already incorporated them into His master plan. The book is the compiled list of those who chose to receive his free gift of eternal life. You could receive the milisecond before death, and that is okay: the ink won't smudge because it isn't fresh. I think all of this is what Daniel was trying to describe with his 'wheel within a wheel' visions.
When we stand before God, there will be nothing to do but repent. I think that Rev says this the best too:
Revelation 6:16 (NIV)
They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
A final note, there is the parable that Jesus told about the owner of a vineyard who paid the workers who started in the morning, the same as the ones who started in the afternoon. This is clearly a parallel to Heavan: salvation can come as a child or as a dieing man's last breath.
MillY, you said:
I wonder if God understands why they turn against Him? How to say this. Does He throw blessings at them in order to get them to see Him?
I think God understands us completely. Therefor He does understand why we turn against Him. God's benevolence is hardly limited to blessings.
The fact that there is oxygen to breath and a sun to light the day are a result of Him and Him alone.
It is like when my daughter prays for a scrape and a week later it goes away. She looks and says God healed her leg. We 'educated' folk, think, no the body healed itself it was designed to do this. My daughter is far more right. It is more accurate to say the designer of this universe created us with self-healing properties. It still has God's authorship on it.
My point here is that blessings are all around us, we just need to look up and see them. God scatters them for access to all. Our minds and culture have put values on those blessings so we think that some are 'more blessed' than others. Just like it is human nature to think that a lie is less of a sin than murdering someone: in God's eyes sin is sin.
Remember when Elisha prayed for his servent to see and the servant looked up and saw God's chariots of fire surrounding and protecting them. "Lord, open our eyes, so we can see."
God Bless
Doug
Loving this talk. Today I working and overheard a customer talking about this very subject. God Is so cool. We both decided waiting for forgiveness and waiting to go to God is not an option. Who knows when it could happen for us. Only God.
We are Blessed
DugALug,
With Moses, the bible said the God 'hardened' Pharo's heart. That would imply that God does prevent repenting. I have my own theory on this, but I would love to hear yours.
Oh yes, I am totally with you on this. I think my weasel-speak must have worked or you would have noticed. :-)
In Exodus, Pharoah hardens his own heart several times, then the last time it is God who hardens it. I have heard a number of interpretations of this, but mine is that Pharoah had seen so many things, that even his hard human heart was on the verge of being broken by them. But it would have been the false repentance of mere humanity.
Actually, I have never looked at it quite like this before, but this is kind of cool. God did not prevent true repentance, but false when He hardened Pharoah. Yeah. I like that. Rings true to me.
Doggone it! I hate it when an innocent little chat tears big gaping holes in my theology! :-D I used to be pretty solid on God hardening people's hearts from time to time. Now I get to rethink it completely.
I'll check back for your thoughts.
Milly,
Loving this talk. Today I working and overheard a customer talking about this very subject.
That is so cool! Praise the Lord.
This is a lot of fun.
Codepoke,
I sure like the train of thought here.
I don't know if pennance was what Moses was asking about, but rather the liberty of his people. I think it comes down to the fact that God hardened his heart concerning something that is not resulting in salvation. The point is moot.
I know that I pray for God to 'soften' the hearts of my friends and family that doesn't know Christ. I'd like to believe that these prayers are not in vain. I know God is faithful and His love melts my heart. I gotta believe that He softens all hearts... hence the scripture about turning a heart of stone to a heart of flesh.
Just a thought.
God Bless
-Doug
[Well, Milly, we seem to have rabbit-trailed. Hope you don't mind :-)]
DugALug,
The point is moot.
OK. Good point.
I know that I pray for God to 'soften' the hearts of my friends and family that doesn't know Christ. I'd like to believe that these prayers are not in vain.
Yep. I'm there too!
Acts 16:14 TNIV Chapter
One of those listening was a woman from the city of Thyatira named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth. She was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul's message.
Romans 5:5 TNIV Chapter
And hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.
2 Corinthians 8:16 TNIV Chapter
[ Titus Sent to Receive the Collection ] Thanks be to God, who put into the heart of Titus the same concern I have for you.
1 Thessalonians 3:13 TNIV Chapter
May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones.
1 John 3:20 TNIV Chapter
If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything.
(and one negative example:
15 Then the angel said to me, "The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages. 16 The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17 For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to give the beast their power to rule, until God's words are fulfilled. 18 The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth." )
Codepoke,
Great stuff... even the negative one.
I really like the scriptures you referenced.
God Bless
-Doug
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